Bulletin Board Archive

Topic: Hip Hop and Hot Wings Article

Mar 27, 2007 06:11am by Les...Izmore - "Knowledge Speaks, Wisdom Listens" www.Izmore.com twitter.com/LesIzmoreHOD www.youtube.com/izmoremusic IZMORE/Soul Providers/RRC Location: MIDDLE OF THE MAP
http://democracyandhiphop.blogspot.com/index.html Check out this interesting take on the night.
Mar 27, 2007 07:06am by Seph.Vs.TooN.
hmmm... a lot of valid points
Mar 27, 2007 07:16am by phism
that's an attitude i go back and forth on. i think that it's correct, but i also think the old school attitude is correct. the way i see it, progress is extremely important and my favorite music is the stuff that when it comes out, i feel like it's doing something that's never been done before, in a way that needed to be done. that being said, there are also things that have been done before, and maybe aren't being done anymore, that also need to be done. if the four elements came back in full force and the youth that need it were feeling it and using it, it would be a beautiful thing. i don't know if i see that happening, but i can see how it is a good thing for those people who are involved in it now, and i feel like i've seen it grow in a lot of ways when i thought it'd be dying. in fact, it's maybe that progressive attitude that's dying in kansas city, considering kris is talking about how popular hh&hw is... even the lil G's in town probably listen to the old bay and old LA as much as the radio. it's not like it was 5 years ago with the weirdo backpacker dark shit running things (which in my opinion has just as much value)... so it's at least relevant to somebody i guess. i like both
Mar 27, 2007 01:43pm by AceFadal - [b:353f9d151d]k[/b:353f9d151d]inestheti[b:353f9d151d]C[/b:353f9d151d]~means To learn by doing www.dipity.com/acefadal WE ARE, Kansas City is [b:353f9d151d]k[/b:353f9d151d]inestheti[b:353f9d151d]C[/b:353f9d151d]! http://crushproofstudio.bandcamp.com/ Location: Downtown, Kansas City, Mo.
Nice Lookin out..Great POST!!
Mar 27, 2007 01:56pm by Reach. - Peace and oneness, www.emceereach.com www.myspace.com/reach www.twitter.com/emceereach www.youtube.com/reachtv www.cdbaby.com/cd/reachmusic2 www.cdbaby.com/cd/reachmusic Location: Kansas City
As usual KB. Always well thought out and insightful. Good work sir.
Mar 27, 2007 04:32pm by MILES - [url]http://www.MilesBonny.com/[/url] Location: KCK
Was this written awhile ago but only recently posted? I agree with parts of it, but add that I do play new stuff frequently.. to little fanfare. I spent the whole first 3 hours of last week upstairs only listening to new albums. I and also played new songs later at the height of the night. That doesnt matter really, I'm not looking to be applauded, just exempt.
Mar 27, 2007 04:40pm by DjShad
its hard dropping new records or records out of the norm like dope lp tracks or exclusives. Its like people get hype off the same 30 records and man i rember the days taking road trips with the parents listening to mad skillz first cd all the way through and pete rock the main ingredient. Those were classic lps. ANd there was so much dope west coast and rap a lot material. Its like when you try to look outside the box its like we can't dance to it. Its messed up when i leave the market and drop the same records(lp tracks other coasts tracks) people love it. I mean real talk there are more funk breaks out there then the ultimate beats and breaks and more out there than tribe, dilla, pharcyde, das efx that still fit into the mindstate of sunday night. thanks again for sunday miles peace dj shad p.s lets not forget shawnna was a backpacker check infamous syndicate for the classic shawnna
Mar 27, 2007 06:48pm by Krisna - "We live in an intensely political age and theory and historical experience show us that the condition of any artistic development is an uncompromising hostility to the values of Stalinism and to those of American bourgeois society." -CLR James
Thanks for the positive feedback, you too phism. Again, this was no attempt to dismiss this event, but to critique the very general ideas that make up the hip-hop conservative tendency. Broker called me this morning to express some concerns over the intentions/language of the piece and I will admit that I did hang over the word "fakery". I know how that appears and I wished I could have used a better terminology. Gear also left a comment on my blog criticizing my piece, but his was much less coherent. I've always appreciated both Broker and DJ Skeme as folks who will tell you exactly how they feel and not pull any punches. I sincerely admire their honesty. And thank you. I am open to any scrutiny, positive or otherwise and I'd like to hear more from y'all. Also, this is not a dis to any individuals in particular. I mean, hell, I came up in [i:2dc32b1b9e]this [/i:2dc32b1b9e]hip-hop and so I feel I'm in the better position to have a slice on it seeing that I grew directly out of it. This piece is far cry from where I was four years ago when I wrote [i:2dc32b1b9e]Revolutionary Hip-Hop[/i:2dc32b1b9e]. Thanks again for the comments. Let's keep building. Krisna
Mar 27, 2007 07:51pm by Krisna - "We live in an intensely political age and theory and historical experience show us that the condition of any artistic development is an uncompromising hostility to the values of Stalinism and to those of American bourgeois society." -CLR James
To respond to Shad and Miles. It goes without saying that I have huge respect for the two of you; on the one hand as humble and cordial people, on the other as extremely talented and intelligent. I understand, Miles, your want of exemption. I mean, I don't think any of us, myself included, are 100% exempt. Again, I do attend here and there and even enjoy listening to some of this music. I guess I should make a quick disclaimer, as I did the same with Drew when we spoke earlier. When it comes down to pure, subjective, personal taste, my money is on old BDP and Black Moon. You go through my CD book and you'll find ATU Mood Pieces, People Under the Stairs, (even some Keith Sweat...don't tell nobody). For my tastes, it doesn't get any better than SP-1200 boom bap shit. But I also like 50. I like Lil Jon. And I like E40. In one sense, its that liberal connoisseur I haven't been able to completely part with, but on the other hand its the part of me that embraces hip-hop on its own terms and lets it develop accordingly without any arbitrary and categorical limitations that I may impose upon it. I just don't buy anymore that the things we dislike about mainstream hip-hop are values injected from outside or from the top by "the corporations" and that "the consumers" are passive, docile subjects who are brainwashed. I think that is a very Stalinistic way to view people. I rather view hip-hop and popular culture in general as sending up the contradictions of our times, whether of ideas, struggles, conflicts, fears, anxieties, hopes, dreams, etc. and that in this way it is not too different from the hip-hop of old. It seems as though what we are clinging too is merely the appearance of the hip-hop of old instead of the real substance behind it. That substance is the litany of things I mentioned above. We have reached a new stage in that substance and so the appearance it takes will be somewhat different. We could, if we really wanted, trace hip-hop's development and myriad changes over three decades and at each turning point revisit the question, "Did hip-hop die then?" merely because it changes its outward appearance. This is not a question of hip-hop, this is a question of our perceptions of it. Opinions? Skeme just posted a comment on this post in my blog and I want to reprint it here.
Mar 27, 2007 07:53pm by Krisna - "We live in an intensely political age and theory and historical experience show us that the condition of any artistic development is an uncompromising hostility to the values of Stalinism and to those of American bourgeois society." -CLR James
Below is from DJ Skeme. ----------------------------------------------------- WHAT THE DEAL GEN> BAKER! Yo, I agree partially to the article. It's a good observation of the so-called line between underground and mainstream. It does stem from what people try to imitate. The difference I think with how I feel about your article is, the "fakery" that you say exists at HHW. I don't believe it is fakery by imitating Wildstyle or any aspect of hip hop that one grew up with. In reality the misogynists, crunk (how we say it in TX) MF's, and the hyphys are all imitating styles that they've also witnessed. "Real" in my opinion is what is real to you in urban society. I just believe those that grew up admiring wildstyle and the "conservative" 4 elements tend to create their own community. I don't think that there is any blacklisting in HHW that is blatant and disrespectful. They simply don't appreciate those that come out of nowhere without any knowledge of the history and pretending that they automatically have a right to perform in venues of so-called "scholars" of this culture.. They will especially scowl if it is evident that they have taken no time to appreciate the culture, when most have grown up with. It is even the same with those that are crunk and hyphy. In the South, you can't just stroll in Sharpstown Mall or Numbers Club in Houston and run up on any of the several rappers you may encounter, talkin' about "yo, I'm trill, let me get in with you." We all find things about aspects of culture in "underground" and "mainstream" that deserves to be clowned, and that usually ties in to excluding some. They should man the F' up and do what it takes to be accepted in that community, if that's what they really want. If they don't want to, I don't believe they should get a free pass just for being interested in the culture. I believe the small quality controls that are in place are good for helping cultures get better. That's what is beautiful about America; you can choose something else if you don't work out. The music that you are referring to that isn't played at HHW, may simply be preferential to the djs. I know me myself, when I have the chance to spin there, I play more of the street related records like MOP, Phat Kat, Bishop Lamont, etc. and Drew, Ataxic, and others I get feedback from appreciate me for it. When Shad spins up there and plays more radio compatible joints, but mashes with indie joints, he gets love too. I also don't believe there are any "necessary" components to hip hop except the initial love for any of the 4 elements which you prefer. Actually it's kind of 5 because producing is almost an element in itself. With those elements, comes self-expression through freedom, which is the point of hip hop. Right? Enough ranting.. that's my piece.. DJ SKEME
Mar 27, 2007 10:45pm by NRG - livin the art that is life ! www.64111clinic.com fam www.nrginmotion.com massage www.myspace.com/nrginmotion world community Location: havenhouse KCK/ 64111 Clinic 4 Life
Wow just Fu*kin wow how I love what is happening in this thread! this is the real ish. feelin all of it especially feeling that we are changin hiphop by what we think subscribe to, support and dis as below so above wow
Mar 27, 2007 11:28pm by Les...Izmore - "Knowledge Speaks, Wisdom Listens" www.Izmore.com twitter.com/LesIzmoreHOD www.youtube.com/izmoremusic IZMORE/Soul Providers/RRC Location: MIDDLE OF THE MAP
From my knowledge you can hear more classic joints downstairs, and upstairs you'll probably hear newer music. That's why I go back and forth throughout the whole night. I love it all but sometimes you want to know the songs and recite lyrics, and sometimes you want to just vibe out. I appreciate when deejays play the album cuts and other shit. But if folks don't know they probably have to get up on their new music.
Mar 28, 2007 12:56am by DEMENCHA
I endorse this thread 100%
Mar 28, 2007 04:18am by Seph.Vs.TooN.
if i knew that newer stuff was being played down there i would hit it up more often.
Mar 28, 2007 03:37pm by Reach. - Peace and oneness, www.emceereach.com www.myspace.com/reach www.twitter.com/emceereach www.youtube.com/reachtv www.cdbaby.com/cd/reachmusic2 www.cdbaby.com/cd/reachmusic Location: Kansas City
Miles does a great job of giving the newer stuff burn. Last time I went down me and Les sat upstairs for quite a while.
Mar 28, 2007 10:40pm by MILES - [url]http://www.MilesBonny.com/[/url] Location: KCK
let's all start our own nights. let's all sit in a circle and cry. naw for real. I'm extra happy HHHW exists.. if it didnt, hmm... the Same complaints would exist... and there would be 1 less place to chill and hear hip hop... even if it does look like a bad version of a 80s hip hop movie sometimes. I say its a great version of a bad 80s hip hop movie, as unpredictable as the culture.
Mar 29, 2007 12:29am by DEMENCHA
upstairs is where it's at.
Mar 29, 2007 05:31pm by Krisna - "We live in an intensely political age and theory and historical experience show us that the condition of any artistic development is an uncompromising hostility to the values of Stalinism and to those of American bourgeois society." -CLR James
Miles, no doubt. You know I'm still gonna come and hear the music I grew on. I actually forget sometimes that there is an upstairs. Thanks for your words bro.
Mar 29, 2007 09:35pm by trystyl - www.myspace.com/trystyl Location: KCMO
Rebel, its time for you to realize that there is a true hiphop and that your paul walls and chamillionairs will never be a part of it, so quit crying about golden era hiphop being played at the peanut and bow down to the zulu nation and temple of hiphop. Krs is so ashamed of you. Don't be mad at me just because I've seen Beat Street 2,467 times. "tryn ta get to yoooouuu and that booooty"
Mar 29, 2007 10:47pm by Reach. - Peace and oneness, www.emceereach.com www.myspace.com/reach www.twitter.com/emceereach www.youtube.com/reachtv www.cdbaby.com/cd/reachmusic2 www.cdbaby.com/cd/reachmusic Location: Kansas City
*Dies*
Mar 30, 2007 12:36am by Krisna - "We live in an intensely political age and theory and historical experience show us that the condition of any artistic development is an uncompromising hostility to the values of Stalinism and to those of American bourgeois society." -CLR James
Listen here you ungrateful, pale-skinned, pimply-faced, mesh cap wearin, jean jacket sportin, privileged, art school attending, neo wanna b-boy, doin the same busted ass moves, dumb grin havin, thinkin your so effin cute, blockin the view, bumpin the turntables, makin a cramped space more cramped, makin a hot space hotter, narrow minded, reducin hip-hop to a sanctimonious trinity, (roots, common, mos def), puritanical, republican, worshippin the bronx but never been, thinkin everyone in the bronx still rocks bells, cazals, and shell tops, forgettin that they probably bumpin juelz, cultish, turning hip-hop into a religion, four elements, playing "My Adidas" but dissin "Air Force Ones", dissin bling, but rocking the fake dookie golds, dissin fronts, but wearin four knuckle rings, dissin "Ridin' Dirty", but holdin up "Fuck The Police", antiquated, anachronistic, mummified, outdated, outmoded, outdone, outrhymed, outproduced, experimental, instrumental, vinyl playin, forgettin that you are 18 and yet talkin about hip-hop like your 60 and been around the block, hip-hop conservative... I got yo card SON! 🙂 Too fun.
Mar 30, 2007 12:52am by beatbroker - -beatbroker HHA/Symbol Heavy/IN crew Location: KCMO
wowzers. you just described this guy i used to know to a T... ... i believe he went by the name "Kool DJ Rebel."
Mar 30, 2007 12:53am by Reach. - Peace and oneness, www.emceereach.com www.myspace.com/reach www.twitter.com/emceereach www.youtube.com/reachtv www.cdbaby.com/cd/reachmusic2 www.cdbaby.com/cd/reachmusic Location: Kansas City
*Double DEAD*
Mar 30, 2007 01:10am by Krisna - "We live in an intensely political age and theory and historical experience show us that the condition of any artistic development is an uncompromising hostility to the values of Stalinism and to those of American bourgeois society." -CLR James
HAHA. Damn Drew, you got me. I think that was like a Mao self-criticism session.
Mar 30, 2007 04:22am by phism
[img:25375724df]http://images.usatoday.com/money/_photos/2004/12/27/inside1-guinness.jpg[/img:25375724df]
Mar 30, 2007 06:16am by cw Location: KC
I can see where the core pont is coming from in this article, but I'm not sure that I agree with the intent of it's exposure... I listen to hip-hop, dig it completely. But I'll be the first to admit, It's not my first choice in genres for the music industry. I'm an old school alternative and hippie at heart. That genre has changed too. I miss, not only the music that came from that era, but the ideals of breaking away from corporate music control too. It's not going to come back...that particular idea has changed into something new...if it were to revive, it'd be different. That part I agree with. I think the writer of this article is someone that just had his dreams broken of hip-hop. Everything he wrote, the wording he used and how he placed his ideas states that he himself has an ideal of what HH&HW was going to be (i.e. Bob Marley in one corner toking up, cool urban kats sitting in the other corner with attitude snapping to the beat, d.j.s enlightening his virgin ears to tunes he'd not known existed..etc.), and went to find something alternative to his idealistic desires. The ideal of anything is much better than the reality. The ideal takes whatever your mind brings you and is entirely self represented. The reality takes the work, input and effort of many people, histories and effects. There are some that crash into reality and accept it, keeping their disapointment out of the ring, while working to edify the people involved to a level that meets the specifications of their ideals. Then...there's this guy that seems to want to break it down further instead of building it up. If something is set forth with a dignified purpose and you find less than your dreams saw possible, you may either ( a ) dig your feet in deep and start giving what you've got to make it what it was meant to be, or you could ( b ) wine and complain about how you didn't get everything you felt entitled to.
Mar 30, 2007 06:34am by trystyl - www.myspace.com/trystyl Location: KCMO
bitch im 23. and bambata sent me your revoked zulu nation card, it had "sucka" stamped on it. He also said that hes gonna use his magicly enchanted daniel boon racoon hat to make you have the squirts every time your bitch ass eats at jimmy johns. Krs also called and said you can get your shit out of storage by yourself, since all you did the entire time was talk about italian generals, fuckin twinkle toes. Don't forget about your posters in my car homie, or I'm gonna give them to pongo's palace. Hope you don't develop any bullet wounds, or you are gonna feel the wrath... dirty cash dylan style.
Mar 30, 2007 06:42am by JDFlow - [url=http://www.my.rawkus.com/profile/jdflow]JDFlow on Rawkus[/url] [url=http://www.myspace.com/jdflow]JDFlow on Myspace[/url] [url=http://ccedistribution.blogspot.com/]Distribution & Marketing[/url] Location: Seattle
[quote:d0f2632592="MILES"]let's all start our own nights. let's all sit in a circle and cry. naw for real. I'm extra happy HHHW exists.. if it didnt, hmm... the Same complaints would exist... and there would be 1 less place to chill and hear hip hop... even if it does look like a bad version of a 80s hip hop movie sometimes. I say its a great version of a bad 80s hip hop movie, as unpredictable as the culture.[/quote:d0f2632592] Hey, a bad version of an 80's hiphop movie is a lot better than the average 2007 hiphop clubs reality. Had to say that, thought it was funny, on the real though that's a great night.
Mar 31, 2007 12:39am by Krisna - "We live in an intensely political age and theory and historical experience show us that the condition of any artistic development is an uncompromising hostility to the values of Stalinism and to those of American bourgeois society." -CLR James
CW, I have less patience for people who respond to what I write with empty, metaphysical phrases. Let me make a suggestion, find a part in the piece, quote it, and tell me why its wrong. You can say its wack, you can say I don't know what real hip-hop is, you can even dis me because I'm white, because I've heard all those things in my years of writing. I will always respond professionally and diplomatically. But please, say something. "The ideal of anything is much better than the reality. The ideal takes whatever your mind brings you and is entirely self represented." Might I offer an alternative to this arbitrary quasi-philosophy "The question whether objective truth can be attributed to human thinking is not a question of theory but is a practical question. Man must prove the truth, i.e., the reality and power, the this-sidedness of his thinking, in practice. The dispute over the reality or non-reality of thinking which is isolated from practice is a purely scholastic question." Theses on Feuerbach, Karl Marx P.S. Glad to be the context for your first post in here.
Mar 31, 2007 05:03am by cw Location: KC
Krisna, The phrases used were far off from empty and metaphysical. They merely looked beyond the surface of the WORDING used. Readers of your article will obviously take it as slandery. You said earlier in another comment on this thread that you mulled over word choice. I could care less about your ideas or content...your intent was very subjective, turning an 'article' into a disdainful slandery. One writer to another that is. P.S. Thanks for being the context for my second post in here too.
Mar 31, 2007 05:31am by Krisna - "We live in an intensely political age and theory and historical experience show us that the condition of any artistic development is an uncompromising hostility to the values of Stalinism and to those of American bourgeois society." -CLR James
Yet you cowardly evade my challenge to find something CONCRETE to disagree with. Enough abstractions, dog. I'll go toe to toe with you on any point until I'm blue in the face, but I can't exactly do that until you disagree with SOMETHING. Most of the folks in here know me well enough to know my "intentions" which are none other than to trace a quite MATERIAL development within hip-hop. I vacillated on the usage of the word fakery, but other than that I stand behind the piece 150%. Tell me EXACTLY what part is "overly subjective" and I'll defend it. Otherwise, stop wasting my time.
Mar 31, 2007 07:29am by dublow - http://KCMusicScene.com www.myspace.com/dublowseven www.myspace.com/barbaricmerits http://barbaricmerits.com
[quote:b0e0e1aca6="Krisna"]Listen here you ungrateful, pale-skinned, pimply-faced, mesh cap wearin, jean jacket sportin, privileged, art school attending, neo wanna b-boy, doin the same busted ass moves, dumb grin havin, thinkin your so effin cute, blockin the view, bumpin the turntables, makin a cramped space more cramped, makin a hot space hotter, narrow minded, reducin hip-hop to a sanctimonious trinity, (roots, common, mos def), puritanical, republican, worshippin the bronx but never been, thinkin everyone in the bronx still rocks bells, cazals, and shell tops, forgettin that they probably bumpin juelz, cultish, turning hip-hop into a religion, four elements, playing "My Adidas" but dissin "Air Force Ones", dissin bling, but rocking the fake dookie golds, dissin fronts, but wearin four knuckle rings, dissin "Ridin' Dirty", but holdin up "Fuck The Police", antiquated, anachronistic, mummified, outdated, outmoded, outdone, outrhymed, outproduced, experimental, instrumental, vinyl playin, forgettin that you are 18 and yet talkin about hip-hop like your 60 and been around the block, hip-hop conservative... I got yo card SON! 🙂 Too fun.[/quote:b0e0e1aca6] That is quite possibly the funniest thing I've read in a long time. As for your article, it was very well written, and is making for a great thread. I agree with most of your points as far as the culture changing/evolving. But as for the claim that HHHW represents "real" hip hop, I can't agree/disagree simply because I've never heard that before. Is that something that was claimed by the dj's or the patrons? If I had never been there on Sunday and read that, I would totally think the place was "snobby." I've been there quite a few Sundays and never got that vibe, especially from the djs. I always took the conservative vibe as more of a tribute to the original elements instead of an elitist view over mainstream hip hop/rap. If it was just a problem with the music that's usually played there, well then that just boils down to preference. If it's the patrons, then you can't really expect the dj's to drop lil john for paying customers that want dilla b-sides all night. Personally, I get tired of hearing the repetitive nature of conservative hip hop just as much as materialistic mainstream joints. I think I've heard as many references to cars and jewelry as I have to the elements. Of course I will always support and choose the founding elements of the culture over materialism, but I certainly don't need to hear about it in every song. I like a mix between the two. And I'd be lying if I said I didn't love to scratch over crunk instrumentals.
Mar 31, 2007 07:38am by trystyl - www.myspace.com/trystyl Location: KCMO
seriously... tipper gore called me and demanded that i give her your house of pain cd so she could run it over with a steam roller she hates shelltoes and celtic crosses "irish need not apply". Jesse Jackson also demanded that you recognize melle mel as the only person to have ever done REAL hiphop.
Mar 31, 2007 07:56am by Krisna - "We live in an intensely political age and theory and historical experience show us that the condition of any artistic development is an uncompromising hostility to the values of Stalinism and to those of American bourgeois society." -CLR James
Thanks for an honest and CONCRETE response, bro. Much appreciated. There is no "official" position advanced by the "patrons" nor by the DJs of HH&HW, so I really should have spent more time enlarging upon the tendency as a whole. You can go to basically any sizeable city or any college town particularly, and be able to find a base for the kind of musical conservatism that exists at HH&HW. I've seen it in Los Angeles, in Colorado Springs, in Lawrence, in Nashville. It is not in any way specific to the people who show up at the Peanut in Kansas City. I chose that particular event as a departure point; as a localized manifestation of a more or less national phenomenon. Every music movement manifests a conservative base. This is a fact. It happened to Jazz, to Rock, to Country. Ask someone who grew up on Metallica what they think of that band now and they'll say things like, "they sold out, changed their style, and went mainstream." A country listener will say that "real" country is Hank Williams, not Toby Keith. Ask the fusion jazz musicians what the bebop jazz heads thought of them. My article is a regional or specific examination of conservatism within hip-hop. Hip-hop has been hip-hop since 1973, thereabouts; right around the inception of the Universal Zulu Nation (of which I joined in 1997), and has had 34 years of development; a good enough time worthy of creating a restorationist tendency. So what is my point? My point is to get a picture, not to tell what folks what they "should" be doing. You tell people what they should do and you know what they say? "Fuck you." And rightfully so. My main point is to offer validity to the mass ways that hip-hop exists today. You ask your average hip-hop listener what hip-hop is and they probably won't mention breakdancing, graffiti, or scratching records. And? AND? And its OK! Things change, they develop, they transcend. I'm okay with this, but the folks who comprise the "take it back" hip-hop are not. This function, this Hip-Hop and Hot Wings, will continue until it exhausts itself. And one day, ten or fifteen years from now, we'll have a night in KC where all they play is Crunk, Screwed, Snap, and Hyphy, the patrons will wear their flat-brimmed hats cocked to the side, and will wax nostalgic about how hip-hop was better back in 2007. Thanks again for the critical responses. Your's was one of the few. By the way, if y'all really want to get incensed, then read everything else on my blog. This is a running theme throughout. Peace. www.democracyandhiphop.com K
Mar 31, 2007 08:02am by Krisna - "We live in an intensely political age and theory and historical experience show us that the condition of any artistic development is an uncompromising hostility to the values of Stalinism and to those of American bourgeois society." -CLR James
Trystyl, I humbly submit. For Jesse Jackson is the official spokesperson for all things hip-hop and Melle Mel can still pump, pump, pump, pump it up.
Mar 31, 2007 08:32am by cw Location: KC
[quote:7b681df0d5="Krisna"]Yet you cowardly evade my challenge to find something CONCRETE to disagree with. Enough abstractions, dog. I'll go toe to toe with you on any point until I'm blue in the face, but I can't exactly do that until you disagree with SOMETHING. Most of the folks in here know me well enough to know my "intentions" which are none other than to trace a quite MATERIAL development within hip-hop. I vacillated on the usage of the word fakery, but other than that I stand behind the piece 150%. Tell me EXACTLY what part is "overly subjective" and I'll defend it. Otherwise, stop wasting my time.[/quote:7b681df0d5] Calm your arrogant, ego defensive attitude down with me before you demand a goddamn thing in return. You come at me sounding like some horrible rendition of Good Will Hunting first off, then you decide your point is more valid than another's. The day you realize I have nothing to prove to you or the world is a GREAT day for all. Til then, accept that you're not the best you could be. Accept it's possible that something you wrote 'might' have been slightly leaning towards the subjective side instead of the journalistic. You back your article 150%. You completely miss the idea of my criticism and instantly puff your ego at me. I don't tolerate or respond to this. I grew past that in Highschool. I also grew past slandery in attempts to make one's self feel better about a possible FLAW in my work. I AM one of your readers you fool. I DID take it as slandery. I've been an EDITOR for a LONG time. I've been a PUBLISHER for longer. You need to open your mind and lower your ego. Your vents of and fits of temper and anger do nothing but take you from a PROFESSIONAL WRITER and lower you to a mere passionate ranter. I hold a right to critique the over all message PORTRAYED by your article Krisna. That was a PUBLIC ARTICLE read by many more people than just those that 'know you and your intent'. Christ woman. Here's honest and concrete since everything else I'm saying is going so far over your head it's making you slam fists on the table: [b:7b681df0d5]"What I do challenge is its self-important claim that it represents "real" or "true" hip-hop. It does this by making a dogmatic distinction between rap and hip-hop, claiming that what passes for hip-hop nowadays is rap; a bastardization of old school hip-hop that places way too much emphasis on violence, materialism, and misogyny."[/b:7b681df0d5] You challenge it...but you offer no resolve. This is an opinionated 'slam' on the event and the continuity it holds to the ideals of hip-hop. No where to you show ANY form of understanding for the fact that hip-hop DJ's...to survive, HAVE to play things people know. I agreed with you that it shouldn't be that way (had you soaked my comment in instead of looking for an out-of-context Marx theses to quote) [b:7b681df0d5]"The conservatives can keep the term hip-hop, it's just a word. But the way your average person has come to understand it, is more in line with what is a part of our fundamental reality today. They understand hip-hop as a part of the way we express our current activity in the world."[/b:7b681df0d5] - This? This is a VERY good statement. But don't you DARE act high and mighty when people take this is a slander of the event YOUR ARTICLE WAS SURROUNDING. Christ Krisna. You lumped it into a very negative ideal and, yet again, offered NO resolution to your point. This is what I meant. You come off as someone MERELY GRIPING. You could have written this article much more powerfully and influentially by stating ( a ) an understanding and ( b ) a freakin' solution. You opted not to, it became a rant, not journalism. [b:7b681df0d5]"But as much as I have struggled to amputate myself from this living corpse"[/b:7b681df0d5] - Amputate yourself from this living corpse? That sounds a LOT like slandery. Yet again, with no offer to a resolution or compromise. It sounds to me like you felt 'better than HH&HW' at least while writing this article and are now trying desperately to smooth things over with those you pissed off. I've studied your comments and cocky retorts on this thread. It is your responsibility to take into consideration the portrayal of your words towards all that will read them and take them in if you feel you hold the right to wear the title 'writer'. You claim to back your piece '150 percent', yet renig on it several times before in this very thread. You call the event a living corpse, but state differently later. You offered NO resolve...you're here now playing another side to the card. Until you reared your head and presented yourself like a Jr. High twit spitting off at the mouth about philosophers relating to something FAR different than anything I brought to the table (i.e. your writing is no Christianity, my confusion over your slanderous article makes me FAR from Feuerbach) and more so your poor and generic confrontation skills...I thought as far as the content itself went, you were a very good writer. Now I see that you're an ego driven word spinster that feels so much better than 'hip-hop' because you've studied it 'oh so much', obviously not lived it in this city though...and you're on this forums to make your article right whether it was to begin with or not. Is that concrete enough for you? Or perhaps you'd like a little asphalt rubbed into it for effect. Chill your ego and direct yourself professionally and as an adult. You'll get MUCH better writing advice in the future. It pains me to apologize that you're not the best at portraying your thoughts and, although you're RIGHT FOR YOURSELF...your little article doesn't seem to be accurate regardless of how hard you throw cocky little body around and intimidate the world into thinking like you. Grow up.
Mar 31, 2007 05:33pm by Krisna - "We live in an intensely political age and theory and historical experience show us that the condition of any artistic development is an uncompromising hostility to the values of Stalinism and to those of American bourgeois society." -CLR James
You came with it, dude. Seriously. I'm not even being sarcastic. I'll respond to you, point for point a little later. Thank you. Its about god damned time you said something.
Mar 31, 2007 05:52pm by mythik - www.myspace.com/mythillogical www.myspace.com/barbaricmerits www.barbaricmerits.com Location: Kansas City
[quote:a9c81c405b="dublow"] I'd be lying if I said I didn't love to scratch over crunk instrumentals.[/quote:a9c81c405b] Word up!
Mar 31, 2007 06:22pm by Reach. - Peace and oneness, www.emceereach.com www.myspace.com/reach www.twitter.com/emceereach www.youtube.com/reachtv www.cdbaby.com/cd/reachmusic2 www.cdbaby.com/cd/reachmusic Location: Kansas City
Ah the plot thickens... *Popcorn's on*
Mar 31, 2007 07:00pm by Rosygirl - "Nocturnally Blooming"
hehehehe *waits with anticipation*
Mar 31, 2007 09:13pm by NRG - livin the art that is life ! www.64111clinic.com fam www.nrginmotion.com massage www.myspace.com/nrginmotion world community Location: havenhouse KCK/ 64111 Clinic 4 Life
cw said[quote:c1042e4614]It is your responsibility to take into consideration the portrayal of your words towards all that will read them and take them in if you feel you hold the right to wear the title 'writer'. You claim to back your piece '150 percent', yet renig on it several times before in this very thread. You call the event a living corpse, but state differently later. [/quote:c1042e4614] your comments were well said. I appreciated them for the feedback and critique krisna was asking for/ second the statement you made that I quoted is a great reminder to every human on this planet. We are still accountable for what we think say and do and no amount of SPIN will change that. I often see in print a type sensationalizm that concerns me greatly as it seems like a current trend not only for professionals in most media but has seemly become the fundamental style of communicating with us ALL. Every disagreement once discovered seems to progress rapidly to sizzlin hype posturing, name calling, dissin, questioning someone about their mother ( a mother's request: please leave me out yo mouth when you trying to cause harm) or some amazing comment sure to cause EMOTIONAL DEATH. Jousting and Vying for the WINNER position. if we could step back for a moment and put ourselves in the others shoe, would we like what we are puttin out to be coming back at us. I offer that and the thought that contrary to the current trends, communication that reflects that you have heard what someone said, thought about it enough to offer your perspective, and then cared enough about yourself and the other person to respond as if they are real is a great tool for growth of each involved and maybe larger, of those who witness that form of communication says WE ARE IN THIS TOGETHER. a very important thing to get across at any time in our culture. thanks for the reminder cw much appreciated nrg
Mar 31, 2007 09:24pm by Krisna - "We live in an intensely political age and theory and historical experience show us that the condition of any artistic development is an uncompromising hostility to the values of Stalinism and to those of American bourgeois society." -CLR James
NRG, you'll have to forgive me for my perceived perpetuation of the "problems" and the not the "solution", but it needs to be said. [quote:c768dcc970]Calm your arrogant, ego defensive attitude down with me before you demand a goddamn thing in return. You come at me sounding like some horrible rendition of Good Will Hunting first off, then you decide your point is more valid than another's. [/quote:c768dcc970] The Good Will Hunting reference was legitimately funny. I have seen the film, but I don't quite understand the relation. Funny though. [quote:c768dcc970]The day you realize I have nothing to prove to you or the world is a GREAT day for all. Til then, accept that you're not the best you could be. Accept it's possible that something you wrote 'might' have been slightly leaning towards the subjective side instead of the journalistic. You back your article 150%.[/quote:c768dcc970] You as the PROFESSIONAL writer you trumpet yourself to be should know that objectivity is relative. EVERYTHING is slanted. It is precisely this liberal nonsense that allows the mass media outlets to portray themselves as neutral. How can any subject truly be objective in a world split between competing forces with which all must conform? I agree that as thinkers we must strive towards objectivity in spite of our inherent limitations, but my point in quoting Marx (which apparently left you asleep at the wheel, dog) is to show that the truth must be proved in practice. Ideas must conform to reality or they are baseless. I'm not interested in intellectualism in and of itself. Secondly, I'm neither a journalist nor an official intellectual of any kind. Maybe I should have told you this to begin with. I never made it past the seventh grade. I basically spend my life slaving away for wages like most. I write in my spare time and I don't follow the traditional, sanctioned rules in writing. I can admit that my piece is subjective. I don't believe I ever challenged this point. All I asked of you was to find a point to disagree with so that there would be some kind of context for discussion. But NO, you need to co-opt a fluid dialogue with "I think the writer of this article is someone that just had his dreams broken of hip-hop. Everything he wrote, the wording he used and how he placed his ideas states that he himself has an ideal of what HH&HW was going to be..." Dude, this is not even remotely coherent. I thought [i:c768dcc970]I [/i:c768dcc970]was the dropout. [quote:c768dcc970]You completely miss the idea of my criticism and instantly puff your ego at me. I don't tolerate or respond to this. I grew past that in Highschool. I also grew past slandery in attempts to make one's self feel better about a possible FLAW in my work. [/quote:c768dcc970] Touchy, touchy. You were never critical until now. [quote:c768dcc970]I AM one of your readers you fool. I DID take it as slandery [sic!]. I've been an EDITOR for a LONG time. I've been a PUBLISHER for longer. You need to open your mind and lower your ego. Your vents of and fits of temper and anger do nothing but take you from a PROFESSIONAL WRITER and lower you to a mere passionate ranter. [/quote:c768dcc970] Again, I'm thoroughly impressed; impressed that a self-proclaimed editor and writer could so brazenly employ such ad hominems and other such fallacies here, not to mention your arbitrary creation of words like â€œslanderyâ€. What a contribution to the English language. [quote:c768dcc970]I hold a right to critique the over all message PORTRAYED by your article Krisna. That was a PUBLIC ARTICLE read by many more people than just those that 'know you and your intent'. [/quote:c768dcc970] Absolutely. Couldn't agree more. Again, sir, where IS your critique? [quote:c768dcc970]Christ woman. Here's honest and concrete since everything else I'm saying is going so far over your head it's making you slam fists on the table: [/quote:c768dcc970] I love the "woman" reference, incredibly indicative of the professional writer in you, needless to mention the chauvinism which is almost as bad as your logic. [quote:c768dcc970]"What I do challenge is its self-important claim that it represents "real" or "true" hip-hop. It does this by making a dogmatic distinction between rap and hip-hop, claiming that what passes for hip-hop nowadays is rap; a bastardization of old school hip-hop that places way too much emphasis on violence, materialism, and misogyny." You challenge it...but you offer no resolve. This is an opinionated 'slam' on the event and the continuity it holds to the ideals of hip-hop. No where to you show ANY form of understanding for the fact that hip-hop DJ's...to survive, HAVE to play things people know. I agreed with you that it shouldn't be that way (had you soaked my comment in instead of looking for an out-of-context Marx theses to quote) [/quote:c768dcc970] And we finally get down to brass tacks. A future suggestion, skip all the preliminary abstract phrasing and ranting and get right to the point. It saves lots of breath, but I imagine a windbag like yourself doesn't regard breath quite as precious as I do. There is no resolve, sir. You sound like a writer for some marginal Anarchist rag that must offer a "solution" as if everything needs fixing. AND you not only insult me, but everyone else when you deceive us into believing you've read the piece. Allow me to quote the piece and then some following comments. It is a little embarrassing that we must resort to such remedial tactics, however. â€œI in no way challenge the legitimacy of this event's existence. It exists, which implies it has some sort of lingering material basis.â€ â€œAgain, this was no attempt to dismiss this event, but to critique the very general ideas that make up the hip-hop conservative tendency.â€ What else can I do to supplicate myself to you and your years of writing AND editing? Secondly, whatâ€™s all this talk now about the â€œidealsâ€ of hip-hop? In one breath you call ME the idealist and in other you champion the clinging to the IDEA of hip-hop. Such vacillation! I feel like Iâ€™m debating John Kerry. Iâ€™m not the idealist, sir. I am completely satisfied with the way hip-hop exists nowadays. You, being the blantant and conflicted cultural conservative that you are, want to hold on to old school hip-hop like some nostalgic grandmother who canâ€™t stop talking about the â€œgood old daysâ€. Note: There were never good old days! Thatâ€™s a bunch of SUBJECTIVE nonsense. As I stated earlier, one day from now THESE will be the â€œgood old daysâ€ to a next generation of hapless conservatives. Damn, I thought my Marx quote was hot, son. [quote:c768dcc970]"The conservatives can keep the term hip-hop, it's just a word. But the way your average person has come to understand it, is more in line with what is a part of our fundamental reality today. They understand hip-hop as a part of the way we express our current activity in the world." - This? This is a VERY good statement. But don't you DARE act high and mighty when people take this is a slander of the event YOUR ARTICLE WAS SURROUNDING. Christ Krisna. You lumped it into a very negative ideal and, yet again, offered NO resolution to your point. This is what I meant. You come off as someone MERELY GRIPING. You could have written this article much more powerfully and influentially by stating ( a ) an understanding and ( b ) a freakin' solution. You opted not to, it became a rant, not journalism. [/quote:c768dcc970] Agreed. And thanks for the compliments. But again, bro, there is NO solution. History will take care of that for us. Thereâ€™s lots of things in this world that should change, indeed. But I would rather focus on changing those things than on getting hip-hop night at the Peanut to play a little 50 Cent every now and then. It is exactly because you are operating within the realm of Understanding (that is, placing things in finite categories that are motionless and static) that you, as someone who is striving to become a critical thinker, cannot get out to Reason which allows for a content to change, to move on its own accord, to manifest new categories that correspond to the substantively different stage a content (in our case, hip-hop) has arrived at. The solution, in a way, has already been provided by the content, by hip-hop itself, and I think I reference that. For instance, â€œI think that the hip-hop of today has manifested new forms of dance, e.g. the Krump of South Central, and that breakdancing has no value outside of its real world context.â€ [quote:c768dcc970]"But as much as I have struggled to amputate myself from this living corpse" - Amputate yourself from this living corpse? That sounds a LOT like slandery. [/quote:c768dcc970] Damn, again with the arbitrary words. But I suppose I understand your point. It strikes one as negative, indeed. But it is also true. Itâ€™s a harsh truth. [quote:c768dcc970]Yet again, with no offer to a resolution or compromise. It sounds to me like you felt 'better than HH&HW' at least while writing this article and are now trying desperately to smooth things over with those you pissed off. I've studied your comments and cocky retorts on this thread. [/quote:c768dcc970] Smooth things over? I know a good many who frequent HH&HW and I mentioned that I myself attend on bits of occasion. I donâ€™t see it as back-stepping, but as honest and diplomatic. I apologize that I just canâ€™t be as pigheaded as you. [quote:c768dcc970]It is your responsibility to take into consideration the portrayal of your words towards all that will read them and take them in if you feel you hold the right to wear the title 'writer'. You claim to back your piece '150 percent', yet renig on it several times before in this very thread. You call the event a living corpse, but state differently later.[/quote:c768dcc970] Thatâ€™s reneg, but Iâ€™m starting to feel like an asshole grammar teacher now so Iâ€™ll shut up. It IS a living corpse, but a living corpse that I myself am intrinsically tied to. [quote:c768dcc970]You offered NO resolve...you're here now playing another side to the card. Until you reared your head and presented yourself like a Jr. High twit spitting off at the mouth about philosophers relating to something FAR different than anything I brought to the table (i.e. your writing is no Christianity, my confusion over your slanderous article makes me FAR from Feuerbach) and more so your poor and generic confrontation skills...I thought as far as the content itself went, you were a very good writer. Now I see that you're an ego driven word spinster that feels so much better than 'hip-hop' because you've studied it 'oh so much', obviously not lived it in this city though...and you're on this forums to make your article right whether it was to begin with or not. [/quote:c768dcc970] You like to repeat yourself a lot. Way to drive home your point. And youâ€™re right, youâ€™re not in any way remotely worthy of being synonymous with a brilliant thinker, wrongheaded as he was. As far as my experience in this city, as tempting as it is, I wonâ€™t even appeal to that logic. Iâ€™ll just say that Iâ€™ve been around the block a few times and Iâ€™m sure several personalities on these forums could confirm that. I guess Iâ€™m not as self-involved as my humble interlocutor to begin rattling off my resume. [quote:c768dcc970]Is that concrete enough for you? Or perhaps you'd like a little asphalt rubbed into it for effect. [/quote:c768dcc970] I like the play on words. Concrete. Asphalt. Cute. [quote:c768dcc970]Chill your ego and direct yourself professionally and as an adult. You'll get MUCH better writing advice in the future. It pains me to apologize that you're not the best at portraying your thoughts and, although you're RIGHT FOR YOURSELF...your little article doesn't seem to be accurate regardless of how hard you throw cocky little body around and intimidate the world into thinking like you. [/quote:c768dcc970] PLEASE donâ€™t apologize for me, dog. I feel weâ€™ve wasted our time because we spent most of it dismantling YOUR ego that you cowardly sublimate onto me. Letâ€™s stick to the points from here on out. What about my responses, as they pertain specifically to the article, do you find fault with? [quote:c768dcc970]Grow up.[/quote:c768dcc970] I love you too.
Mar 31, 2007 09:47pm by phism
[size=24:2089206344]DIPSET[/size:2089206344]
Mar 31, 2007 10:36pm by cw Location: KC
Krisna, My replies are long...because you requested specifics. You still come off childish and cocky and FAR from a confident writer. The reason I didn't go into detail with my first comment was because I wasn't looking to embarass you in depth based on the obvious reality of your present stance vs. article. Your continual attempts to defend yourself by bringing me down don't really make a damn lick of difference. I chose to point out the most obvious...and least inflicting of your transgressions in an attempt to raise the awareness of the people critiquing your 'article' by merely suggesting more action, and less complaining. I figured this was the most tactful response, as pointing out your obvious fence setting would be embarassing. Since you can't stick to a point and try to take down my thoughts instead of truly justifying your own, I'll leave the obvious out of it. It is very much seeming to confuse you. Touchy? Nah. Just tired of repeating what you said to you. Yet, for prosperity's sake: You still fail to defend your stance and side jumping within your article. Breaking me down won't work this time Krisna. My thoughts and insights are based only core and grounded logic and rationalities. Because you refuse to defend your article, and instead have decided to fluff your own points and try to 'break' the validity of my god given right to creative opinion, in retrospect, I will point out the exact moment I lost all respect for your 'strong opinions': "It may appear quite hypocritical of me to scrutinize this event as I do show my face from time to time. But as much as I have struggled to amputate myself from this living corpse, a great bulk of my close friends frequent this establishment so I find myself making the occasional cameo (I'm not really that important)." ~ Krisna the HH&HW hater "Miles, no doubt. You know I'm still gonna come and hear the music I grew on. I actually forget sometimes that there is an upstairs. Thanks for your words bro." ~ Krisna the HH&HW patron You chose your words you published to the public and claimed a vile disdain for this event, yet within this thread you renig on the strength of your adamant lack of desire to associate with this event. Son, for someone that talks the way you do about 'old school' needing to rest, your metaphorical medical concepts date back to the civil war era. That's pretty damn old school. Your ideas of 'amputation' would most definatly keep you out of practice in any medical field. This is one slow, drawn-out and painful process of removing a limb. Your history...your thoughts...your ideals are not in question. They never were. I do appologize for misunderstanding your stance. Where in as I took it to be that you missed the grass roots form of hip-hop, I hadn't picked up that you were complaining to advocate the superficially driven, materialistic side. That was my bad. The thought is still the same. You complain, you don't offer change. Your words are not powerful, they are not influential, they are empty and full of slanders and complaints. My comment was based on how you retort with a defense as if what you wrote was some worthy review. Your advocacy here in this forum means nothing with the adamant intent you displayed in your article. Had you showed up here and NOT backed out on several things you stated...I'd still respect you and your portrayal of opinion. Then to make the claims here that you support your article 150 percent...after proving otherwise...is just downright ridiculous. Just accept that you said something you should've thought about more. You've already said it yourself so far. I'll try not to write so deep for you next time. P.S. Your Marx comment (being as how it was directed towards a specific ideal of Feuerbach) was not 'hot', yet completely out of context. Learn the intent of quotations before using them in place of your own thoughts. It'll save you explination time later.
Mar 31, 2007 10:55pm by Krisna - "We live in an intensely political age and theory and historical experience show us that the condition of any artistic development is an uncompromising hostility to the values of Stalinism and to those of American bourgeois society." -CLR James
Fair enough. I really would like to talk specifically about my piece. But I will accept your position. Thanks for the exchange and I mean no hostility. Peace.
Mar 31, 2007 11:08pm by DEMENCHA
I too am working on a relatively general article on hip hop in kansas city, and I gotta say that Krisna and I have very similar ideas. Someone wrote on here earlier that they never heard anyone at hip hop and hot wings refer to themselves, their buddies, their hole in the wall scene as "real hip hop". I beg the differ. You can hear MC's at the peanut ALL THE TIME talking about "yo this is where the real hip hop is," microphone to mouth. out
Mar 31, 2007 11:16pm by cw Location: KC
Krisna, No hostility taken I can say that your work is a very well written justification into a self reflective stance on your views of the industry. Great diction. Great insight. Nearly poetic composition and use of vocabulary. Great visual metaphors. I like it a LOT as a writing piece. In reference to what you're looking for...I suppose one man's problem is another's solution. I think that pretty much sums up a lot of the argument on this thread. I'll always think the edification of old school, grass roots needs revival and that the onslaught of the more materialistic hip-hop is nothing more than another sign of the downfall of mankind, but that goes more into religion and personal values for me. With music, I guess it's up to the taste of each individual person.
Apr 1, 2007 02:58am by Krisna - "We live in an intensely political age and theory and historical experience show us that the condition of any artistic development is an uncompromising hostility to the values of Stalinism and to those of American bourgeois society." -CLR James
CW, It was a fun exchange and a good sharpening of both of our polemical skills. I appreciate your honesty and I have respect for anyone who can debate, even sarcastically, without reducing the conversation to crude insults. Much respect. K.
Apr 1, 2007 02:59am by Krisna - "We live in an intensely political age and theory and historical experience show us that the condition of any artistic development is an uncompromising hostility to the values of Stalinism and to those of American bourgeois society." -CLR James
Demencha, I'm sincerely interested in your work and would be willing to exchange ideas anytime. Feel free to contact me whenever. [email protected]
Apr 1, 2007 06:08am by trystyl - www.myspace.com/trystyl Location: KCMO
[quote:b22e50de4a="Krisna"]CW, It was a fun exchange and a good sharpening of both of our polemical skills. I appreciate your honesty and I have respect for anyone who can debate, even sarcastically, without reducing the conversation to crude insults. Much respect. "polemical" dude, seriously get off your high horse, ass face. sorry bout bein mia tonight, we'll hook up soon and discuss all the wack shit that you belive should pass for hiphop. K.[/quote:b22e50de4a]
Apr 1, 2007 02:37pm by Reach. - Peace and oneness, www.emceereach.com www.myspace.com/reach www.twitter.com/emceereach www.youtube.com/reachtv www.cdbaby.com/cd/reachmusic2 www.cdbaby.com/cd/reachmusic Location: Kansas City
[quote:1681094313="cw"] I'll always think the edification of old school, grass roots needs revival and that the onslaught of the more materialistic hip-hop is nothing more than another sign of the downfall of mankind, but that goes more into religion and personal values for me.[/quote:1681094313] This is precisely why I've always been torn between staunch realism and being the culturally conservative idealist. Part of me says Rap is exactly where it needs to be. That 30 years ago the same hedonistic themes existed... The other part of me sees an even bigger picture that extends beyond the music itself. That part of me despises the imagery that some of the music represents. This is exactly what I was trying to get across to you Krisna. That rock and a hard place.
Apr 1, 2007 07:03pm by beatbroker - -beatbroker HHA/Symbol Heavy/IN crew Location: KCMO
[quote:594590d6a3="DEMENCHA"]I too am working on a relatively general article on hip hop in kansas city, and I gotta say that Krisna and I have very similar ideas. Someone wrote on here earlier that they never heard anyone at hip hop and hot wings refer to themselves, their buddies, their hole in the wall scene as "real hip hop". I beg the differ. You can hear MC's at the peanut ALL THE TIME talking about "yo this is where the real hip hop is," microphone to mouth. out[/quote:594590d6a3] yes. and on that note, whenever we have a non-regular performer (ie: aloe blacc, james chrisos, kanser, strange fruit) they tend to make very similar lofty claims regarding they themselves being somehow more "real" or "true" than the next guy and that they are going to show errbody what "real hiphop is." nobody wants to hear that shit. and nobody ever requests for these kind of statements to be made. i cringe everytime i hear similar words uttered. it is a dangerously pretentious stance to take no matter who you are and what you represent. people who speak of such things are very guilty of the fakery touched on earlier. and may i remind you that these same claims can be heard at most hiphop shows/events anywhere in the world. it's alwyas a crock of shit, as this is a purely subjective position. there is no such thing as real hiphop. there is no real or fake anything for that matter. there is simply what you like and what i like.
Apr 1, 2007 07:31pm by Krisna - "We live in an intensely political age and theory and historical experience show us that the condition of any artistic development is an uncompromising hostility to the values of Stalinism and to those of American bourgeois society." -CLR James
So true. There is no such thing as real hip-hop. http://democracyandhiphop.blogspot.com/2007/01/theres-no-such-thing-as-real-hip-hop.html
Apr 2, 2007 01:42pm by JKR70 - [img:66e766d8cb]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v696/JKR70/LVSIGNATUREBANNER.jpg[/img:66e766d8cb] WWW.HUMANCROPCIRCLES.NET WWW.MYSPACE.COM/HUMANCROPCIRCLES WWW.MYSPACE.COM/JKR70 Location: KcK
There is no spoon [img:07c08c48a5]http://www.cs.technion.ac.il/~cs236373/Pictures/Gallery/album/2005/slides/ex_4_spoon1024x768.jpg[/img:07c08c48a5]
Apr 2, 2007 11:02pm by Krisna - "We live in an intensely political age and theory and historical experience show us that the condition of any artistic development is an uncompromising hostility to the values of Stalinism and to those of American bourgeois society." -CLR James
When were guns, bitches, and bling not a part of hip-hop? Just curious. Peace.
Apr 2, 2007 11:25pm by JKR70 - [img:66e766d8cb]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v696/JKR70/LVSIGNATUREBANNER.jpg[/img:66e766d8cb] WWW.HUMANCROPCIRCLES.NET WWW.MYSPACE.COM/HUMANCROPCIRCLES WWW.MYSPACE.COM/JKR70 Location: KcK
[quote:63eecd0c7d="Krisna"]When were guns, bitches, and bling not a part of hip-hop? Just curious. Peace.[/quote:63eecd0c7d] Man, I get soo many people asking about that quote, Its like people feel that these are endearing qualities of the culture that I somehow shamefully overlooked. they "arent part of the FOUR ELEMENTS" Or, I could say they are as much of a part of it as the Devil was GOD. Or, I could say, look at it like this, the four elements, to me, are like the four food groups, now I'm sure that you could find something bad in each of those if you look for it, but if you stick with the positives in each, Ideally you'll be healthier and live longer.
Apr 3, 2007 12:20am by DEMENCHA
[quote:22362b86b0="Krisna"]When were guns, bitches, and bling not a part of hip-hop? Just curious. Peace.[/quote:22362b86b0] I just sent JKR70 a pm a week ago asking that same question. I'm emailing you right now.
Apr 3, 2007 01:05am by Krisna - "We live in an intensely political age and theory and historical experience show us that the condition of any artistic development is an uncompromising hostility to the values of Stalinism and to those of American bourgeois society." -CLR James
Yeah, man, its all good. I just like to hear from folks about their perceptions of what hip-hop is, was, should be, etc. There are so many contrasting opinions about those things that it would appear that none of us truly understand or accept it for what it actually is. I guess for me, since lyrics would necessarily be part of the "four elements" (which itself is somewhat an antiquated conception), that hip-hop lyrics have always been violent, misogynistic, materialistic, etc. since those are things that exist and occur in the real world. It's just interesting to me that, for some, there is this propensity to almost mythologize the past as if hip-hop was this sort of divine and impenetrable culture, safe from the above descriptions, when, in actuality, it developed off the back of such realities. Thanks for sharing though. Its good to dialogue about this stuff. Peace.
Apr 3, 2007 05:31pm by Reach. - Peace and oneness, www.emceereach.com www.myspace.com/reach www.twitter.com/emceereach www.youtube.com/reachtv www.cdbaby.com/cd/reachmusic2 www.cdbaby.com/cd/reachmusic Location: Kansas City
30 years ago rappers talked about the very same things. Money, women and cars... Misogyny, materialism and hedonism have always been a part of Rap music because they exist in American culture at large.
Apr 3, 2007 05:52pm by JKR70 - [img:66e766d8cb]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v696/JKR70/LVSIGNATUREBANNER.jpg[/img:66e766d8cb] WWW.HUMANCROPCIRCLES.NET WWW.MYSPACE.COM/HUMANCROPCIRCLES WWW.MYSPACE.COM/JKR70 Location: KcK
Nothings sacred anymore. This world is a downworld spiral. And most seem to be more comfortable with that. I dunno, antiquated, does this apply to all topics in regard to the respect of the roots of a culture ? If I were raised in say, the spanish culture, would my family traditions in regards to being spanish be antiquated, or would I be simply adhering(sp) to the roots of my culture ? The 10 commandments are quite old, and though I am NOT trying to make a direct comparison between the four elements and the 10 commandments, arent they an antiquated set of rules that should have been updated ? I dunno, you're definitely going to out type/debate me here, as you are a writer, so lets just agree to disagree. My beliefs / adherences to the culture dont have to be yours.
Apr 3, 2007 07:01pm by Reach. - Peace and oneness, www.emceereach.com www.myspace.com/reach www.twitter.com/emceereach www.youtube.com/reachtv www.cdbaby.com/cd/reachmusic2 www.cdbaby.com/cd/reachmusic Location: Kansas City
Ultimately I think we're oversimplifying the problem if we potshot Rap music for misogyny, materialism and hedonism. They exist in the culture at large and because of that fact it seeps into music and television mediums as well... I'm no fan of the objectification of women, but I realize that we'll have to go back much further than the mid-70's to find the roots behind that problem. Furthermore, I don't know that the founding fathers would've set a particular course for the culture other than self-expression... Be that destructive or life-altering. I think my music speaks for what I stand for... And that is the real definition of what Rap music and Hip Hop culture should be... The expressions of the conditions and values one was brought up with. And again, I have no problem at all with espousing the sound doctrines and values of yesteryear, but in truth... Rappers have expressed this negative imagery from the very beginning so how exactly can the two be separated entirely? I represent the change I want to see within the culture and the accompanying soundtrack to that culture, but to expect Rap to be less hedonistic, misogynistic and materialistic without fixing the root problems that stand much taller than any form of music could... Is...well...ridiculous.
Apr 3, 2007 07:15pm by artistpage Location: From KCMetro to the WORLD
[quote:94f89b9072="JKR70"] My beliefs / adherences to the culture dont have to be yours.[/quote:94f89b9072] this is the true canundrum huh? then the questions are how do we as a culture, community, and individuals procede from a place of respect for each other and our unique contributions?
Apr 3, 2007 11:15pm by Krisna - "We live in an intensely political age and theory and historical experience show us that the condition of any artistic development is an uncompromising hostility to the values of Stalinism and to those of American bourgeois society." -CLR James
Joker70: Nah, you're right, and I don't think adherence to principles is a bad thing. Just a little principled discussion that's all. Thanks though. Reach: That was incredibly well articulated and I could not have said it better. You successfully demonstrated that line between your personal values and the reality of the situation. You are my dude!
Apr 4, 2007 12:35am by phism
[quote:7307ea4971="Reach."]30 years ago rappers talked about the very same things. Money, women and cars... Misogyny, materialism and hedonism have always been a part of Rap music because they exist in American culture at large.[/quote:7307ea4971] so, are we talking about letting those things be or taking them out? or neither? i think that HH&HW focuses too much on Hip-Hop and not enough on Hot Wings.
Apr 4, 2007 01:05am by Krisna - "We live in an intensely political age and theory and historical experience show us that the condition of any artistic development is an uncompromising hostility to the values of Stalinism and to those of American bourgeois society." -CLR James
Nick, Reach just said it. How exactly are we supposed to weed out those themes in hip-hop if they are representative of prevailing values in society?? Every attempt to do that has been in vain. From Tipper Gore's PMRC, to C. Delores Tucker steamrolling over CDs, you won't get rid of it. Get rid of social decay (which ain't gonna happen short of the workers making a god damn revolution), you'll get rid of it in hip-hop. I'll put a guarantee on that. Peace.
Apr 4, 2007 04:38am by phism
that's part of the consideration of the underground. if mainstream music reflects mainstream ideals, what are the underground ideals that we are going to reflect? obviously that's a rhetorical question each individual has to answer. but i think it's an important question if you're seriuos about making serious music. however, if you want to make stupid music, more power to you.
Apr 4, 2007 04:51am by Krisna - "We live in an intensely political age and theory and historical experience show us that the condition of any artistic development is an uncompromising hostility to the values of Stalinism and to those of American bourgeois society." -CLR James
See, I don't think you can polarize mainstream and underground as they both reflect popular ideas. Underground hip-hop music is merely a regional or nuanced form of national conditions, but confined to a particular region. You have regional hip-hop in the mainstream when you consider the Bay Area, Houston, Atlanta, etc. There is absolutely no way you can cast underground (as it is more vast than mainstream) as diametrically opposed to mainstream forms. Okay, I'm not even sure that makes sense. I'm pretty exhausted this evening.
Apr 4, 2007 06:51pm by Reach. - Peace and oneness, www.emceereach.com www.myspace.com/reach www.twitter.com/emceereach www.youtube.com/reachtv www.cdbaby.com/cd/reachmusic2 www.cdbaby.com/cd/reachmusic Location: Kansas City
The terms "mainstream/underground" have practically no meaning anymore. Those lines have been so far blurred by the conditions and connotative definitions that one has to come by to assign them that they're really obsolete at this point. Some of the most beloved (so-called) underground acts are just as misogynistic, hedonistic and materialistic as any Top 40 artist you can name. You make a great point though Phizz. Ultimately that's an individual assessment and decision one has to make about the brand of Rap they are to represent... I've chosen a different approach than the prevailing themes in Rap, but that's just me. Rap would suck if every act was like Kweli. The only bone I have to pick with the corporate dispensation of Rap music is the fact that there is no balance. That's all most people want...
Apr 5, 2007 06:25pm by DJSKEME Location: Grandview, MO
[quote:4991c73043="Reach."]The terms "mainstream/underground" have practically no meaning anymore. Those lines have been so far blurred by the conditions and connotative definitions that one has to come by to assign them that they're really obsolete at this point. Some of the most beloved (so-called) underground acts are just as misogynistic, hedonistic and materialistic as any Top 40 artist you can name. You make a great point though Phizz. Ultimately that's an individual assessment and decision one has to make about the brand of Rap they are to represent... I've chosen a different approach than the prevailing themes in Rap, but that's just me. Rap would suck if every act was like Kweli. The only bone I have to pick with the corporate dispensation of Rap music is the fact that there is no balance. That's all most people want...[/quote:4991c73043] OK. Now with all this in mind. Why is it HHW's responsibility to bring that balance?? I feel that many people don't wanna hear the themes of gat-pack anymore. HHW seems to be an escape from that. So you do agree that rep'n a particular theme in hip hop is all in one's perspective. So why can't a venue choose a particular theme? That was my point. If a particular angle of hip hop is being represented at a spot, why doesn't that give them the right to call themselves Hip Hop and Hotwings without being forced to represent the negative aspects? Why don't vegetarians get knocked then for representing all the food groups?
Apr 5, 2007 06:33pm by PL - Adversity will make you either give up, or grow up. Location: Kansas City, Missouri
[quote:b871b30482="Krisna"]When were guns, bitches, and bling not a part of hip-hop? Just curious. Peace.[/quote:b871b30482] Shit! They were here before Hip-Hop, and they'll be here after.
Apr 5, 2007 06:35pm by Reach. - Peace and oneness, www.emceereach.com www.myspace.com/reach www.twitter.com/emceereach www.youtube.com/reachtv www.cdbaby.com/cd/reachmusic2 www.cdbaby.com/cd/reachmusic Location: Kansas City
[quote:d81a97c043="DJSKEME"] OK. Now with all this in mind. Why is it HHW's responsibility to bring that balance?? I feel that many people don't wanna hear the themes of gat-pack anymore. HHW seems to be an escape from that.[/quote:d81a97c043] I've never once made that the responsibility of Hip Hop & Hotwings so I'm not sure what you're talking about...
Apr 5, 2007 06:52pm by DJSKEME Location: Grandview, MO
[quote:ead4af9d56="Reach."][quote:ead4af9d56="DJSKEME"] OK. Now with all this in mind. Why is it HHW's responsibility to bring that balance?? I feel that many people don't wanna hear the themes of gat-pack anymore. HHW seems to be an escape from that.[/quote:ead4af9d56] I've never once made that the responsibility of Hip Hop & Hotwings so I'm not sure what you're talking about... [quote:ead4af9d56]Why don't vegetarians get knocked then for representing all the food groups?[/quote:ead4af9d56] You were never on the debate team in high school were you Skeme?[/quote:ead4af9d56] OMG! You were the 1st one to say that they shouldn't call themselves HHW if they don't rep all aspects! Your denial is priceless!! ..and even from the points you and Krisna are making, how is that not the same? Ya'll are saying that HHW is 1 sided with rap conservatism and that they should change? So what is the opposite? To play all forms of hip hop right? Ya'll are knocking them for not playing every form of hip hop.. which equals to making it their responsibility. And no I'm sorry I never joined a pretentious group of so-called know it alls that never even made it to the supposed elite in life... I had better things to do.
Apr 5, 2007 08:00pm by Krisna - "We live in an intensely political age and theory and historical experience show us that the condition of any artistic development is an uncompromising hostility to the values of Stalinism and to those of American bourgeois society." -CLR James
Skeme, Reach has never said that about HH&HW and neither did I. I appreciate your points, in fact you make a strong argument about people making independent spaces for cultural expression. Well said, but neither one of us, especially Reach, has ever made it the night's responsibility to change. I've said multiple times that there is a "lingering material basis" for this event. But this DOES NOT preclude any attempt to critique NOT HH&HW, but HIP-HOP CONSERVATISM IN GENERAL. If you have read this entire thread (which if you haven't, you have your work cut out for you) you'll see that I have argued that this is a national tendency, not a tendency within Kansas City or Lawrence. You can go anywhere in America and find public repositories for the perpetuation of hip-hop conservatism similar to HH&HW. So what if HH&HW starts playing Top 40, or underground hip-hop with a mostly black following and it brings out an entirely different constituency? Then what? Quite naturally, another event would spring up somewhere in KC to fill the space that HH&HW would have left had it changed its content. I'm not going to make hip-hop conservatism go away by being critical of it, but I can better understand how it will eventually wither away by understanding how its categories change.
Apr 5, 2007 08:02pm by phism
regarding the less appreciated elements... i do think it'd be dope to have a blackbook session night somewhere, and i considered asking one of the local b-boy crews if they'd be interested in having a monthly dedicated to themselves or something. i'd also like to see an open scratch session on a regular basis, i know some people were doing that, but i mean in a venue of some sort. or maybe a radio show. don't-give-a-fuck-style.
Apr 5, 2007 08:09pm by Krisna - "We live in an intensely political age and theory and historical experience show us that the condition of any artistic development is an uncompromising hostility to the values of Stalinism and to those of American bourgeois society." -CLR James
Phiz, that sounds a like another thread of its own you should start. It doesn't really expand the discussion here. No offense, dog.
Apr 5, 2007 08:14pm by beatbroker - -beatbroker HHA/Symbol Heavy/IN crew Location: KCMO
phism. scratch sessions WILL be abound this summer at the hip hop and hotwings. however, we will be scratching in a STRICTLY conservative fashion. 😉
Apr 5, 2007 08:15pm by Krisna - "We live in an intensely political age and theory and historical experience show us that the condition of any artistic development is an uncompromising hostility to the values of Stalinism and to those of American bourgeois society." -CLR James
God damn you, Drew.
Apr 5, 2007 08:51pm by DJSKEME Location: Grandview, MO
[quote:c39debda40="Krisna"] I'm not going to make hip-hop conservatism go away by being critical of it, but I can better understand how it will eventually wither away by understanding how its categories change.[/quote:c39debda40] Well, do you know why hip hop and ANY conservatism will not wither? Because people will ALWAYS get old. With that said, there will always be someone that will complain about the way things are and the way things are changing and the way things should change. It's damn ironic to me how people complain about those people who complain about the lost golden era of hip hop. [color=red:c39debda40]YO!!!! If there is complaining about other complaining, that just equals to a whole bunch of complaining![/color:c39debda40] If anything is really needed, it's a SOLUTION. How about those with a prob. with conservatism or blatant materialism or whatever start their own venues? And invite everyone for 1 big happy community night? I read the whole thread and I never saw that fact come up. I may have missed it.
Apr 5, 2007 11:48pm by Seph.Vs.TooN.
how many heads does it take to change a light bulb? two one to actually do it and another one to say that the old one was twenty times better
Apr 6, 2007 02:06am by Les...Izmore - "Knowledge Speaks, Wisdom Listens" www.Izmore.com twitter.com/LesIzmoreHOD www.youtube.com/izmoremusic IZMORE/Soul Providers/RRC Location: MIDDLE OF THE MAP
[quote:28a1e509af="Seph.Vs.TooN."]how many heads does it take to change a light bulb? two one to actually do it and another one to say that the old one was twenty times better[/quote:28a1e509af] AHAAHAHAAH HAAAAA
Apr 6, 2007 04:43am by Krisna - "We live in an intensely political age and theory and historical experience show us that the condition of any artistic development is an uncompromising hostility to the values of Stalinism and to those of American bourgeois society." -CLR James
[quote:0d3dc73142]How about those with a prob. with conservatism or blatant materialism or whatever start their own venues? And invite everyone for 1 big happy community night?[/quote:0d3dc73142] Because, Skeme, that's what everyone already does! That's exactly what HH&HW serves; a market; a select constituency. G's Jamaican serves another; a mostly black, East Kansas City, low-income market. Skybox serves another; women, men looking for women, working-class, live for the weekend, radio-friendly crowd. [quote:0d3dc73142]If anything is really needed, it's a SOLUTION. [/quote:0d3dc73142] A solution to what? To conservative hip-hop? What good would it do? The solution will be in the people themselves, not in liberal market economics. When motherfuckers are so resolved that they seize the levers of power in society, when they control this whole shit, their workplaces, schools, communities, etc. a new hip-hop (maybe then it won't even be hip-hop, it will be a much more universal form) will emerge which expresses such a period of social transformation. Just like in the late 80s and early 90s, when black students were on the move in this country against Apartheid in South Africa and against racism in America, a hip-hop surfaced which aesthetically expressed this concerted movement of people. But you know what? If you were to ask KRS, Chuck D, Brother J, Defari, YZ, Brand Nubian, Wise Intelligent--the motherfucking vanguard of that era of hip-hop--and the whole lot of these incredibly dope, but also incredibly jaded and intellectually backward artists where black nationalist hip-hop came from and they will ultimately tell you THEY DON'T KNOW. They have no fucking clue where it came from and yet the truth stares them in the face. I don't give a fuck, I'm a call it what it is. This is a very basic Marxist conception: that the economic and, subsequently, the political activity of people is the material basis for their respective cultures, for how they express themselves artistically. What's my point? I'm getting there. Sometimes we see indicators of such social change, of revolution, within our activity on the job or in other social realms, activity which reveals working people's potential to be rulers, to be active participants in the economy, in politics, etc. instead of being passive slaves to a process which turns their creative power and abilities into commodities to be bought and sold to the highest bidder on the market. We can find indications that reveal instead a tendency to completely obliterate the present social organization altogether and remake society for the sole purpose of folks having collective control over our labor, our institutions, and our neighborhoods. Now, these indicators exist also within our cultural superstructures: our art, music, film, dance, poetry, etc. If we pay attention, we will be able to foresee such grandiose transformation: the transfer of class power, the self-government of the working class. Hip-hop--hip-hop as a totality (not your hip-hop, my hip-hop, the hip-hop of NY, or the hip-hop of the NHHPC), but hip-hop taken as a whole with all its necessary contradictions, confronts us as THE BEST POSSIBLE gauge of the potential revolution of social relations. Why? Because it is striving to become the most universal way that not only America, but the entire industrialized and even underdeveloped world are choosing to express their activity. If more and more people are expressing themselves in the same fashions, regardless of the particular regional nuances they inject into it, that necessarily means that we are DOING the same things. We are THINKING the same things. Skeme, we are on the brink of universal social change, the kind that dwarfs the Black Power or Civil Rights movement or the international labor movement in general. Hip-hop is revealing this to us. It may reveal the potential for self-destruction, for barbarism, for decay, but this is the inevitable outcome of workers not taking the reins of society. This is the logical extension of dictators, vanguard parties, and capitalist ruling classes permanently managing society. This is exactly why 50 Cent is real and relevant. Because his music signals the sense of urgency needed by humankind before barbarism tears us apart for good. And if you listen to his lyrics, you hear a yearning for a completely new society that yields to peopleâ€™s collective capacities to manage, to plan, and to control. In conclusion, by examining hip-hop we can better foresee where the new society might be located, how it will develop, and how we can help usher in its existence. And when the hell did critical thought become equated with complaining? Maybe we should just renounce thought in general and accept everything within their abstract identities? Are you okay with that? Thatâ€™s what men of â€œUnderstandingâ€ do, which merely accepts things in finite, motionless categories (hyphy, crunk, screwed, g-funk, boom bap, etc.). But when we employ â€œReasonâ€, we understand how these categories move and change, how one develops out of the other, how bourgeois multi-racialism grew out of Black Power which developed out of Civil Rights, how a new society will develop out of the old. These categories didnâ€™t fall out the sky. They developed out of the dialectical struggle of opposites. Tim, I'm not okay with using Understanding, with accepting liberal categorical thought. I'm a critical thinker. It doesn't mean I'm right about everything. Iâ€™m with you on solutions, on change, but we have to understand how change works.
Apr 6, 2007 05:04am by NRG - livin the art that is life ! www.64111clinic.com fam www.nrginmotion.com massage www.myspace.com/nrginmotion world community Location: havenhouse KCK/ 64111 Clinic 4 Life
[quote:ab7ba7ab79="Krisna"] What's my point? I'm getting there. [color=yellow:ab7ba7ab79]Sometimes we see indicators of such social change, of revolution, within our activity on the job or in other social realms, activity which reveals working people's potential to be rulers, to be active participants in the economy, in politics, etc. instead of being passive slaves to a process which turns their creative power and abilities into commodities to be bought and sold to the highest bidder on the market. We can find indications that reveal instead a tendency to completely obliterate the present social organization altogether and remake society for the sole purpose of folks having collective control over our labor, our institutions, and our neighborhoods. Now, these indicators exist also within our cultural superstructures: our art, music, film, dance, poetry, etc. If we pay attention, we will be able to foresee such grandiose transformation: the transfer of class power, the self-government of the working class. Hip-hop--hip-hop as a totality (not your hip-hop, my hip-hop, the hip-hop of NY, or the hip-hop of the NHHPC), but hip-hop taken as a whole with all its necessary contradictions, confronts us as THE BEST POSSIBLE gauge of the potential revolution of social relations. Why? Because it is striving to become the most universal way that not only America, but the entire industrialized and even underdeveloped world are choosing to express their activity. If more and more people are expressing themselves in the same fashions, regardless of the particular regional nuances they inject into it, that necessarily means that we are DOING the same things. We are THINKING the same things. Skeme, we are on the brink of universal social change, the kind that dwarfs the Black Power or Civil Rights movement or the international labor movement in general. Hip-hop is revealing this to us. It may reveal the potential for self-destruction, for barbarism, for decay, but this is the inevitable outcome of workers not taking the reins of society. This is the logical extension of dictators, vanguard parties, and capitalist ruling classes permanently managing society. This is exactly why 50 Cent is real and relevant. Because his music signals the sense of urgency needed by humankind before barbarism tears us apart for good. And if you listen to his lyrics, you hear a yearning for a completely new society that yields to peopleâ€™s collective capacities to manage, to plan, and to control.[/color:ab7ba7ab79] In conclusion, by examining hip-hop we can better foresee where the new society might be located, how it will develop, and how we can help usher in its existence. And when the hell did critical thought become equated with complaining? Maybe we should just renounce thought in general and accept everything within their abstract identities? Are you okay with that? Thatâ€™s what men of â€œUnderstandingâ€ do, which merely accepts things in finite, motionless categories (hyphy, crunk, screwed, g-funk, boom bap, etc.). [color=yellow:ab7ba7ab79]But when we employ â€œReasonâ€, we understand how these categories move and change, how one develops out of the other, how bourgeois multi-racialism grew out of Black Power which developed out of Civil Rights, how a new society will develop out of the old. These categories didnâ€™t fall out the sky. They developed out of the dialectical struggle of opposites. [/color:ab7ba7ab79] Tim, I'm not okay with using Understanding, with accepting liberal categorical thought. I'm a critical thinker. It doesn't mean I'm right about everything. Iâ€™m with you on solutions, on change, but we have to understand how change works.[/quote:ab7ba7ab79] hey krisna, we don't use the same lingo to speak brother, but our brains and eyes are seeing the same signs. I especially see the paragraph in yellow. keep going keep looking and seeing and reporting [color=cyan:ab7ba7ab79]sometimes I get so caught up in watchin for change, I forget that I am the change me the power of one nrg[/color:ab7ba7ab79]
Apr 6, 2007 05:11am by Krisna - "We live in an intensely political age and theory and historical experience show us that the condition of any artistic development is an uncompromising hostility to the values of Stalinism and to those of American bourgeois society." -CLR James
No doubt, Necia. That's inevitable for us. We can never, ever throw critical thought to the wind. Action without thought is crude perception.
Apr 6, 2007 06:47am by trystyl - www.myspace.com/trystyl Location: KCMO
[quote:ae2f43707a="Seph.Vs.TooN."]how many heads does it take to change a light bulb? two one to actually do it and another one to say that the old one was twenty times better[/quote:ae2f43707a] you and reb need to go eat jimmy johns together, 2 peas in a pod
Apr 6, 2007 05:43pm by Reach. - Peace and oneness, www.emceereach.com www.myspace.com/reach www.twitter.com/emceereach www.youtube.com/reachtv www.cdbaby.com/cd/reachmusic2 www.cdbaby.com/cd/reachmusic Location: Kansas City
[quote:8f1ab97783="DJSKEME"] OMG! You were the 1st one to say that they shouldn't call themselves HHW if they don't rep all aspects! Your denial is priceless!![/quote:8f1ab97783] That was a different discussion entirely which existed in a context that isn't presently available, but carry on... I said it to you then... I'll say it again. I absolutely stand by what I said... Hip Hop is more expansive than we sometimes give it credit for... The appreciation of Hip Hop culture through any medium be it radio, television or any weekly night being held in the United States or abroad...should be balanced. Because that...is what Hip Hop is...at its core. And that includes the negative imagery that some of us object to (present company included). Now... Let me qualify that with this (since you managed to strip my commentary from the context it was made within)... I have no expectation of how the night should be run, what records should be played or what artists are allowed to play that venue...I'm neither a facilitator of the night or a regular patron. Ultimately my opinion amounts to little in the grand scheme of things. I have no bones to pick with anyone involved with that night. None... [quote:8f1ab97783]..and even from the points you and Krisna are making, how is that not the same? Ya'll are saying that HHW is 1 sided with rap conservatism and that they should change? So what is the opposite? To play all forms of hip hop right? Ya'll are knocking them for not playing every form of hip hop.. which equals to making it their responsibility. I had better things to do.[/quote:8f1ab97783] Your commentary is inaccurate and completely unfounded. Go back to the first post in this thread and re-read it.
Apr 6, 2007 06:17pm by Reach. - Peace and oneness, www.emceereach.com www.myspace.com/reach www.twitter.com/emceereach www.youtube.com/reachtv www.cdbaby.com/cd/reachmusic2 www.cdbaby.com/cd/reachmusic Location: Kansas City
[quote:c29736f0e6="DJSKEME"] Well, do you know why hip hop and ANY conservatism will not wither? Because people will ALWAYS get old.[/quote:c29736f0e6] Damn Timothy... That's deep... Real talk. All jokes aside... You make an excellent point. [quote:c29736f0e6][color=red:c29736f0e6]YO!!!! If there is complaining about other complaining, that just equals to a whole bunch of complaining![/color:c29736f0e6][/quote:c29736f0e6] And I'll say this to you just as I said this to Necia not long ago... We are so dismissive of anything that criticizes the status quo that we never get around to change. Krisna's piece (love it or hate it) was much too well thought out to oversimplified as a mere complaint. This forum, by definition, is meant to house the discussions of those within this community. How can we expect progress to come of shared opinions ALL THE TIME? That's no way to grow. Unpopular opinions will always surface. They're inevitable. Rather than categorizing them as mere complaints let's check them through these discussions and hear them out long enough to determine if they hold any value. I said these exact words to Necia. And she understands where I was coming from now. Now I also said that no critique should, in its intent, demoralize or unreasonably badger anyone it targets... And I believe that. I just believe we're all adults and that if we have disagreements we can sort them out...like adults. I'm an idealist on Fridays though so...
Apr 6, 2007 08:58pm by NRG - livin the art that is life ! www.64111clinic.com fam www.nrginmotion.com massage www.myspace.com/nrginmotion world community Location: havenhouse KCK/ 64111 Clinic 4 Life
over simplifying, short cut thinking, disrespect for oneself or another, in general hot headed mouthin off, not conductive to 💡 personal growth, knowledge gainin or buildin, community makin, self expressive, elevatin interactions [size=9:3c2ebbb1a5]course all this is based on who you are bein and what you are doin[/size:3c2ebbb1a5] its important to process outside of the box as often as you can if you wanna be innovative. while in contrast some shit is just true no matter how much rationalizing and smooth talking you apply. for me this is where critical processin/thinkin comes in. knowing which is which and when to do what for the situation or life event damn. crazy huh? oh and when NOT to think at all 😯
Apr 6, 2007 10:50pm by phism
[quote:464de156bc="beatbroker"]phism. scratch sessions WILL be abound this summer at the hip hop and hotwings. however, we will be scratching in a STRICTLY conservative fashion. :wink:[/quote:464de156bc] so we're going to have to go off [url=http://www.ttmethod.com/]notation[/url] then?
Apr 7, 2007 11:05pm by DEMENCHA
krisna check your pm