Topic: El Torreon.
- Nov 25, 2006 04:15pm by Reach. - Peace and oneness,
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*Sigh*
Where do I start?
I read a blog today about a show I played recently with the Naydivz.
El Torreon graciously hosted the event.
[url=http://blog.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=blog.view&friendID=71793100&blogID=197341062&indicate=1]Click here to get up to speed.[/url]
I try to have an open mind. I realize that paying dues is an important part of an artist's growth, but where do you draw the line?
I booked a show with El Torreon on November 10th.
It took a half-hour to get the sound to respectable levels (and even then it still wasn't quite right). Not to mention the fact that we left with less than 25% of what was made on the door.
I realize the pickings are slim for Rap acts right now, but I'm starting to think that we only complicate matters when we continuously patronize venues that don't have our best interests at heart. Hell, quality sound and a decent payout at the end of the night is all we're asking for.
I'm not exactly calling for a boycott of the venue...
Just be aware of what's going on...
New venue... Old Icehouse ownership. Same problems.
There were sound issues and trouble with payouts at The Icehouse.
It's no surprise that those trends have found their way over to 3101 Gillham Plaza.
Naydivz aren't the only act that had to call the venue out for poor sound quality. I did the very same thing (as many of you know) when they were still in The Icehouse building. Several mics cut in and out throughout the performances that night. Here's the kicker...Back then they charged the artists for their usage of the PA system. Priceless. We're paying you for something that doesn't function properly? Classic.
Be advised.
I, for one, plan to follow in Naydivz footsteps and will not play that venue again until they take Rap acts seriously.
Now understand me when I say this...
Artists have a responsibility just as well as the venue does.
We have to hold up our end of the deal as well.
That means:
1. Showing up...on time.
2. Having quality sets.
3. Leaving the building in the same condition we found it in.
4. Promoting the show to the best of our abilities.
But if we've done all of those things we deserve to have quality sound and respectable pay levels at the end of the night.
- Nov 25, 2006 05:10pm by KIZ
hey i just want to ask everybody, do yall work out riders, and contracts before booking the date.
This way if and after the show they are bound by contract. With your own contract they have to adhere to what you want, and you have to adhere to what they want. They paylevels are disclosed upfront, everything is in writing, no suprises at the end of the night.
Is thei being done? If so they yall should have some pretty serious laysuits on your end because of breach of contract.
- Nov 25, 2006 05:14pm by gunrok Location: KC
Reach has hit the nail on the head.. I do not believe myself to be an unfair person either. All artist are "Entertainers".. they make fans by the fan hearing and enjoy what that artist does. If we cannot convey the messages and sounds properly live... then what interest could their be for the fans?? What interest could their now be in the Artist if he can't gain a few fans because of the sound. How are we to sell our music if it sounds like dog poo. fans make bands.. never forget that, and a good venue w/ good sound is THE single most important tool to an artist, their music, and their communication w/ their fans. If venue owners can't see this... they should mostly likely NOT waste their time, money and efforts owning a venue. Thanx for the ear!
Naydivz
- Nov 25, 2006 10:05pm by NRG - livin the art that is life !
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www.myspace.com/nrginmotion world community Location: havenhouse KCK/ 64111 Clinic 4 Life
[quote:3b5644b0a0="KIZ"]hey i just want to ask everybody, do yall work out riders, and contracts before booking the date.
This way if and after the show they are bound by contract. With your own contract they have to adhere to what you want, and you have to adhere to what they want. They paylevels are disclosed upfront, everything is in writing, no suprises at the end of the night.
Is thei being done? If so they yall should have some pretty serious laysuits on your end because of breach of contract.[/quote:3b5644b0a0]
TO ERBODY PERFORMING ANYWHERE IN KANSAS CITY AND SURROUNDING PARTS:
[b:3b5644b0a0]there is a blank performance contract in the BIZ section of this site. please copy and paste it in word on your computer for ongoing use.[/b:3b5644b0a0]
now [b:3b5644b0a0]my comments about this situation [/b:3b5644b0a0]ie clubs and their relationship with local artists.
I know artists have to be heard in public and that in the beginning, you may have to play in less than idealic circumstances in order to "get on", but if you don't ever graduate yourselves from those types of gigs, then YO BAD!
MOST LOCAL BARS and PROMOTERS are notorious for taking care of "THEIR BOTTOM LINE" so as artists YOU have to step up YOUR "BUSINESS GAME" if YOU are gonna get the RESPECT/PAY YOU deserve for YOUR practice, artisty, time and efforts.
Clubs, Promoters, and their owners are not required to BE ethical in their business practices. We want them to be fair, but they are not bound to do considerate business by the law. There has been much written about the shady business practices prevalent in this music industry from the bottom to the top. Performers, as a vital part of club and promoters bottom line, need to step up their knowledge of contracts, riders, industry standards for each level of performance. (This is especially true for independent artists who hope to establish themselves in the industry) this way you begin to [u:3b5644b0a0][b:3b5644b0a0]graduate yourselves[/b:3b5644b0a0][/u:3b5644b0a0] as you gain in performance experience, business knowledge and a fan following.
In my opinion, kansas city metro venues are not offering the same thing new york, atlanta, and LA venues are offering (pay to play as a doing business cost makes a lot more sense in these areas, as there are music industry movers and shakers attending these events just to scope out new talent on a regular bases) so the concept of pay to play is moot in kansas city metro. NO ARTIST CURRENTLY, should be paying any local club to present their music to the public.
here's why,
the public is paying for you to play in a sense
if venues keep even half of the door at your event, and if the liquor is flowing before you get on stage, then you have paid to play that night
YOUR GROUP: if your being at their venue brings in an additional 30-50 people above their regular crowd you have earned your stage for the night. think of using their stage as renting space for the night and you will see what I mean.
Here's the optimal breakdown of responsibilities:
THE CLUB: for your performance that night, if they are smart, they have advertised your performance at their venue in local papers and have through all other events happening before your night.
YOUR GROUP: you have passed around fliers, posted on hiphopkc and other boards, passed the word through myspace and other social site of the same kind, and you have word of mouth to all enquirer for at least 2 week prior to your event.
THE CLUB: they have purchased liquor, maintained their club ie its clean and in working order and they have lights gas and water available.
YOUR GROUP: You have written a couple new songs, practiced and polished your set to perfection so that the audience will feel good about spending their little extra money on being there to see yall perform.
THE CLUB: has plenty of staff available so that your event will flow smoothly. bartenders are fully stocked with everything your crowd could want and the door person is ready to take your crowds money for entering and there are people on have to ensure the crowd has a great time by moving through the crowd greeting, thanking, and encouraging them to have a good time, hence spend more money.
YOUR GROUP: you have arrived early enough to do a sound check, have advanced your contract to ensure that you and the venue are on the same page and you are working the crowd, introducing yourselves, encouraging those new to your group to give yall a listen (your fans and potential fans)
THE CLUB: Liquor is flowing, folks are coming in and the stage is set
YOUR GROUP: Don the stage, rock the house, perform you stellar set, and go back to working the crowd your old and new fans
Now comes the end of the night business:
THE CLUB: knows how much money they have made (they always know before you, how much they wanna give you) and if there is a contact, they know how much they owe you (trust this)
YOUR GROUP: whoever is the desitnated business handling person, gets with the owner, contract in hand and it should be simple from there since you both know what's going on. if they try to give you a sad story, just refer back to the contract and stick to it NO MATTER WHAT.
THIS IS THE NEXT STEP FOR MOST ARTISTS IN THE METRO AREA, CLUBS WILL RESIST IT BECAUSE IT WILL AT FIRST, SEEM TO MAKE THEM LESS MONEY, BUT HEY, ARTISTS HAVE BEEN TAKING UP THE SLACK FOR CLUBS IN THIS AREA WELL BEFORE PROHIBITION AND IT REALLY IS TIME FOR A CHANGE. You are helping them (promoters/clubs) make their money, they need to be held accountable for paying you for your work
YOU WILL HAVE TO BE THE CHANGE YOU WANT TO SEE
PEACE
NRG
- Nov 25, 2006 11:16pm by spits_at_mirrors Location: Kansas Shitty, MO
Hey, this is some great advice. I really hope everyone sticks to their guns and holds their ground on this. Then you can really make some headway for local hip hop artists. And thanks for letting us know about the sample contract. That's the hard part, and it's done for us!! Just need to modify it a little probably? To each situation? And you got yourself the contract you deserve. The clubs will be forced to start accepting these contracts if all the artists have them.
But what about the sound problems? Does that play into the contract? Or is that another battle of it's own to be faught?
- Nov 25, 2006 11:39pm by phism
the people who run it now used to do the icehouse and that place sucked too.
i kind of want to put in a bid to take over
- Nov 26, 2006 01:16am by KIZ
[quote:27c16d27b2]But what about the sound problems? Does that play into the contract? Or is that another battle of it's own to be faught? [/quote:27c16d27b2]
I have seen riders that request a sound man of good nature, i know that there are always going to be problems, but if you have it stated in your rider that a adequate sound system is provided in order to do the show. And if not you can state that you wnat your own sound man to do your sound, or at least help the sound man to set your levels.
I opened up for mixermast mike and razell a while ago, and he had his own sound man travel with them and he took about an hour to just set up razel's mic, it was crazy but i have to say that it was the best sound i heard just by going through the work to make it happen.
And you as a performer you have the right to do your best at any venue, but you have to show up and do a sound check, and if you need to do early like an hour before the show put that in your contract as well.
Thnaks nrg for the knowledge.
Also i forgot to say, everybody needs to start doing these things in order to be taken serious. I know that it might close down some areas to perform like reach stated above, but hell it couldn't be worse than it is now as far as venues to perform in now. and if they can't take your business hustle and doing biz the right way then you know where they stand.
peace
- Nov 26, 2006 04:44am by DR.T - nuts .. haha Location: KCMO
The Bathrooms at the El-Torreon are atrocious.
I don't in any way support at place where the bathrooms look like that...
...I mean damn.
- Nov 26, 2006 09:10am by NRG - livin the art that is life !
www.64111clinic.com fam
www.nrginmotion.com massage
www.myspace.com/nrginmotion world community Location: havenhouse KCK/ 64111 Clinic 4 Life
My Bad! that contract I referred to is NOW in the The business of thangs.
I had it under contracts and its was hard to get to. its easy now.
I hope it helps and I hope you will begin to use contracts for you gigs
this could take some committment, but in the long run I think you will be happy with the results both for you and your fans.
afterall, its gotta be about fans on some basic level. they buy the cds, merch, tell erbody else bout your music and show up time and time again to give support to the artists.
- Nov 27, 2006 03:03am by Reach. - Peace and oneness,
www.emceereach.com
www.myspace.com/reach
www.twitter.com/emceereach
www.youtube.com/reachtv
www.cdbaby.com/cd/reachmusic2
www.cdbaby.com/cd/reachmusic Location: Kansas City
[quote:44cb23d9b4="KIZ"]hey i just want to ask everybody, do yall work out riders, and contracts before booking the date.[/quote:44cb23d9b4]
Contractual agreements almost never enter into play.
Perhaps they should though.
This could well be the reason why such a discussion is taking place.
Though there are venues who do maintain fair practices.
- Nov 27, 2006 03:20am by Reach. - Peace and oneness,
www.emceereach.com
www.myspace.com/reach
www.twitter.com/emceereach
www.youtube.com/reachtv
www.cdbaby.com/cd/reachmusic2
www.cdbaby.com/cd/reachmusic Location: Kansas City
[quote:db57854bb2]I know artists have to be heard in public and that in the beginning, you may have to play in less than idealic circumstances in order to "get on", but if you don't ever graduate yourselves from those types of gigs, then YO BAD![/quote:db57854bb2]
I hate to speak for anyone else, but I think that I stand in agreement with the Naydivz on this matter. We've taken matters into our own hands by opening up the discussion on this issue and by refusing to play the venue again under the current set of circumstances. I don't know straight away that this is what you're calling for, but I think this to be the right way to handle the situation.
I have had my fill of shady promoters, venue owners and the like.
I am making changes as we speak to avoid such dealings in the future.
I believe that artists have a responsibility all their own, but if they have met that responsibility then they deserve fair practices. One can argue whether or not that is true, but what can't be argued is that change is necessary.
I opened this thread to educate other artists who may not be aware to be careful in their dealings with El Torreon.
In truth, I had actually hoped to cancel the November 10th gig.
I'd had it with the management after not one, but two, debacles at The Icehouse. I went through with it though because I didn't want to let the artists I booked down. My plan all along has been to stop dealing with Icehouse/El Torreon management.
[quote:db57854bb2]MOST LOCAL BARS and PROMOTERS are notorious for taking care of "THEIR BOTTOM LINE" so as artists YOU have to step up YOUR "BUSINESS GAME" if YOU are gonna get the RESPECT/PAY YOU deserve for YOUR practice, artisty, time and efforts.[/quote:db57854bb2]
I believe this is precisely what myself, Gunrok and Nadoo are doing by voicing our concerns in a public forum made up of our peers AND by refusing to adhere to such substandard practices in the future. Speaking out against El Torreon practices got Naydivz cut from a future bill...and again at the risk of putting words in their mouths...I don't think they mind.
This was just my PSA to be sure that others use our dealings with El Torreon as a stepping stool to avoiding such setbacks in the future. Whether or not that venue ever decides to look the word "integrity" up is another matter altogether. Reach's future is not contingent upon what they do. The same is true of everyone else.
I'm just calling El Torreon out the same way I called The Setlist out about 2 years ago over at LHH. I had a horrible experience there and haven't been back since.
Though I believe that we have to be responsible for what we (as artists) do and if we patronize venues that don't have fair practices we really can't complain. I said as much earlier in this very thread.
We have to look out for ourselves.
- Nov 27, 2006 09:51am by NRG - livin the art that is life !
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www.nrginmotion.com massage
www.myspace.com/nrginmotion world community Location: havenhouse KCK/ 64111 Clinic 4 Life
I commend both you and the Naydivz for your actions. no decent here
Reach.
nrg
- Nov 27, 2006 02:26pm by Reach. - Peace and oneness,
www.emceereach.com
www.myspace.com/reach
www.twitter.com/emceereach
www.youtube.com/reachtv
www.cdbaby.com/cd/reachmusic2
www.cdbaby.com/cd/reachmusic Location: Kansas City
[quote:4de2f76e61="NRG"]I commend both you and the Naydivz for your actions. no decent here
Reach.
nrg[/quote:4de2f76e61]
Thanks.
That stuff gets old.
- Nov 29, 2006 12:04am by gunrok Location: KC
sup ya'll.. ive been keep'n up on the chatter and i must say... cool. and thanx for the 2 cents... id also like to comment on the fact that, i've never raised such a rukus about anything.. i always keep my comments to some choice text, and i think nrg noticed i went after them here and there w/ my words, but honestly, i keep it on the up and up, it was just another case of hard work VS. bad sound (which, i even let go...... till i got cancelled) = bad show = frustrated me = blog. Anyways.. our discussions have led us to a bit of action... check the latest from El Torreon.
THIS IS EL TORREON:
FYI We bought new monitors, the next day, and are redesigning all the PA this week. I never asked you to pay to play, never would, we just can't do empty shows, we'll sink for sure then. It costs us about $100 / day just for rent and utilities......
I had nothing against you guys, we just can'ty afford to do "dry run" shows, if you guys would have asked, I would have gladly had you guys come over to the venue before we open and make sure everything was cool with you, we fixed the sound problems as best we can and immediately. If you didn't start off with the "dry run" show thing, I would have OFFERED to do that for you.. especially after you had Tammy make up tickets... that takes time for her to do that. Keep in mind, We're not some rich mega corp we're just regular people, musicians, trying to make a place for people to play. Sorry you had a sound problem, shit breaks, thats how it goes sometimes, thats why they sell new shit....We bought some..I'll post this as a comment on your blog too..
looks like we have a bit of communication going on. Thanx for everyone's comments
- Nov 29, 2006 05:34am by NRG - livin the art that is life !
www.64111clinic.com fam
www.nrginmotion.com massage
www.myspace.com/nrginmotion world community Location: havenhouse KCK/ 64111 Clinic 4 Life
[quote:1a4478b3dc="gunrok"]sup ya'll.. ive been keep'n up on the chatter and i must say... cool. and thanx for the 2 cents... id also like to comment on the fact that, i've never raised such a rukus about anything.. i always keep my comments to some choice text, and i think nrg noticed i went after them here and there w/ my words, but honestly, i keep it on the up and up[/quote:1a4478b3dc]
Hey gunrok,
nrg here
One of the purposes of this site is dialogue man. Hey I am in support of your blog. . . . . you told it like it is. as for my opinion about this subject, you know me. . . . I have some and I said what I felt about this topic as it has affect my life not only through my kids but hey my mom played this local scene (jazz clubs) for over 30 years, I have seen a lot over the years and I try to pass on as much as I can. Some popular some not.
I encourage all the local artists to "get paid" so they can live TOO! I want er'body to live, that's all and last time I checked you still need some $$ to provide the bare basics that support life ( ya know food, clothing, and shelter) Long as that is the case, you can count on me to keep saying "get paid" be professional, hone yo skills, Live your whole life and be an artist too!
as for this,
[quote:1a4478b3dc]THIS IS EL TORREON:
FYI We bought new monitors, the next day, and are redesigning all the PA this week. I never asked you to pay to play, never would, we just can't do empty shows, we'll sink for sure then. It costs us about $100 / day just for rent and utilities......
I had nothing against you guys, we just can'ty afford to do "dry run" shows, if you guys would have asked, I would have gladly had you guys come over to the venue before we open and make sure everything was cool with you, we fixed the sound problems as best we can and immediately. If you didn't start off with the "dry run" show thing, I would have OFFERED to do that for you.. especially after you had Tammy make up tickets... that takes time for her to do that. Keep in mind, We're not some rich mega corp we're just regular people, musicians, trying to make a place for people to play. Sorry you had a sound problem, shit breaks, thats how it goes sometimes, thats why they sell new shit....We bought some..I'll post this as a comment on your blog too..
looks like we have a bit of communication going on. Thanx for everyone's comments[/quote:1a4478b3dc]
Good for yall. Question: If artists show up with contracts that spell out your business arrangements, will you be willing to work using contracts?
in my comments earlier, I was not talking about music mogals yall I was speaking about relationships between clubs, promoters and artists.
you don't have to be some BIG corporation to do bad biz. Everybody is trying to make a living, this industry in its best form is collaborative which means we each have our roles to perform and the better we all execute our roles well the better it can be for everyone including the fans who pay the tab for most of it.
- Nov 29, 2006 02:16pm by Reach. - Peace and oneness,
www.emceereach.com
www.myspace.com/reach
www.twitter.com/emceereach
www.youtube.com/reachtv
www.cdbaby.com/cd/reachmusic2
www.cdbaby.com/cd/reachmusic Location: Kansas City
Looks as though they may be responding.
Hopefully things will be better in the future.
I'm gonna take the "wait and see" approach though.
